Donna: Nadine Nethery joins me on the podcast today to talk about the importance of audience research for creating copy that converts and how to go about it. It's one of her big passions because it's so often overlooked.
As a strategic copywriter and brand strategist who believes in international brand touch points within a fully mapped customer journey.
I have to a hundred percent agree with Nadine that I think it is incredibly important to get this right within your business. Now, over the past five years, Nadine has worked with hundreds of women, led brands globally to improve their copywriting strategy and in our chat today, Nadine and I explore all things copywriting, when it comes to infusing your brand into your customer journey, nurturing, genuine connections, driving sales up and celebrating loyalty authentically.
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So come and join me. Get your ticket head to donnahann.com/90days. The link is in the show notes. Now let's jump into this podcast with the Nadine Nethery and get those business ideas sparking in your brain.
So hello and thanks for tuning in to the She's In Business podcast. I'm your host Donna Hann and today, I am joined by the wonderful Nadine Nethery, welcome Nadine to the podcast.
Nadine: Hi Donna. Thanks so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here.
Donna: I'm excited to talk to you today because as you know, this podcast is created from moms in business who not only want to learn more skills and, most strategies and get those mindset, hats that we all need as business owners, but also the purpose behind the podcast is supporting and inspiring one another, and sharing the real life side of being a mum in business. And we know that there is no overnight success. And so I always like to invite my guests at the beginning of the podcast to share what it is that you do.
Let us get to know you a little bit and also to share your business journey. So would you mind kicking us off with that today?
Nadine: Yeah. Sure. So, hi everyone. I'm Nadine Nethery founder of CanDoContent. I am a strategic copywriter, for women at brands on to intentionally attract and delight and retain that dream customers.
And I've been doing this very rewarding gig for the past five years. And as part of that journey, I've given global e-commerce success stories and industry disrupting service providers, the words to build genuine connections with our audience and each of them on various parts of their, their business journey.
Yeah. I'm also a mom of three tiny humans that keep me on my toes and that I love to chase around our five acres on the outskirts of Sydney when I'm not wearing my can-do content hat. Yes. Yeah, I've been in business full time for just over a year, which feels like a small eternity with COVID lockdowns and homeschooling.
Yeah. It's certainly been a journey, but I started as a side hustle in mid 2017. So while working a full-time corporate gig. Rising my three small kids and also trying to juggle all the things in life. So I'm just coming up to five years in business and yeah, it's been a steep learning curve, but very rewarding.
Donna: Yes, it is a rewarding journey, but yeah, it does take a lot of work. How did you get into copywriting? What's your journey as far as like, was it something you went straight into through uni or is it something that you slowly worked your way into and developed an interest for?
Nadine: Yes. I've got a background in marketing and PR.
So I've worked in automotive PR for 10 years, roughly and traveled the world to motor shows and press launches over in Europe, rather glamorous. And I did that for a while. And then had a bit of a Southern shifting careers after redundancy and try to find a new purpose and something bad, had an impact on the people that I worked with and also something that gave me the flexibility to obviously be with my, with my kids and define how I shaped my week around the various needs that I've got. So that then sent me on a bit of a mission to find my purpose and what that could look like and having a background in marketing and PR always been enjoying writings or press releases, you know, marketing materials. So I've got a background in messaging and making the words flow and, you know, telling a story. So I started investigating content marketing as an avenue and as part of that course, I explored copywriting and it just opened my eyes to a whole new world that you can actually do, writing as a career and that people pay you to write websites and come up with messages that speak to the desires of your audience.
So then exploded further and took a whole bunch of courses with the industry, leading experts in copywriting and consumer psychology and yeah, built up my customer portfolio from there.
Donna: So, interesting. So interesting. So let's have a little talk about copywriting as such. It's strict back. Let's strip everything back for a second.
So the people listening that may be not a hundred percent clear on what copywriting is. Can you define what a copywriter does?
Nadine: Yeah. So copywriting, I like to think of it. You give a brand permission or the words and the means to join a conversation that's already happening in their customer's mind. And that can take many shapes office website, copy, email copy, but it's defining a message that makes a brand stand out from everyone else.
The same as all the competitors and yeah that tells a story and builds a connection, which ultimately is what gets the audience into your dream customers to, to act and take action.
Donna: And why do you think it's so important to have good copy? Like there's so much variation in the different kinds of copy that are out there and the different quality of copy that's there.
So why do we need to have good copy within our business?
Nadine: Yeah. So ultimately obviously as new business owners, everyone starts with a logo. So often showing up online is being mistaken for having shiny logo and a color palettes. And you're not getting it out there and then filling the blank canvas with random words, because really you've got your brand in inverted commerce.
So I truly believe that, you know, it's actually the words that sell and the, the visuals compliment your message and your brand strategy and your point of difference and how you tell it. So. Yeah, it's pretty much, what's the ins between you and that say ultimately.
Donna: Yeah. And tell me, what's your thoughts on swipe copy? Swipe copy, if you're listening in is something you're that you buy or you're given, and it's a sort of a standard generic cut and paste of words that you ideally adapt to your business versus writing your own copy from scratch. Versus engaging with the services of a professional copywriter in a done for you service.
So what's your thoughts on the differences between those things and as far as the impact that, that delivers, do you want to tell us a little bit about that too?
Nadine: Yeah, so obviously new businesses come with berries, varying budgets, and copywriting can be a major investment of the beginning of a business journey. So if, what stands between you and getting yourself out there and showing up with confidence is a swipe file, then subbing it, you know, go ahead and get that swipe file and customize it as much as you can.
And maybe use it more as inspiration to get an idea of how. Just structuring your website or how email should be written rather than just taking it and running with it. Ultimately, I still think working with a copywriter is going to get to next level results simply because great copywriters take the time to help you do the research.
So you don't take that step back because you're so close to you business, okay. So take the step back to intimately, get to know your audience, find out your point of difference. You know, your story that makes you unique, your purpose, you vision. All the things that make you unique and that ultimately help your audience fall in love with your brand and everything that you have to offer.
Yeah. So most copywriters really have varying price points as well. So you don't have to go all in unnecessarily and commissioning your whole nurture sequence, welcome sequence, your lead magnet, your website. Even focusing on the most important bits that make you feel super overwhelmed and flustered is a great starting point and then gradually chipping away at it.
And often, funnily enough, once you start digging into those messages and to find a starting point, the risks comes a lot more naturally just because you've got that messaging, you know, lined up and you've unpacked, what makes you stand up.
Donna: Yeah. I love that. And that is something like I coach women in my Ready To Rise program, has like online content as well as we do small group coaching and stuff like that. But one of the modules. That's within the content is all about understanding your why, knowing your purpose, being really clear on your values, getting to know who you're actually selling to your ideal customer. And once, like you said, once you've got that, really clear starting point. It's almost like, you know, you're on the starting block and you're ready to go with your business. But if you don't have a really good understanding of those things, then you're really not going to hit the mark with anything within your business. Really. Um, and copywriting is one of those things.
You mentioned your ideal customer research. So this is a topic that I know that you're really passionate about and I am too. So I'm glad that we're going to talk about this today in this episode, because it's a really optimize your copy. You do need to research your ideal customers. The people that you're really talking to.
As an expert in this area Nadine, can you tell us why that's so important?
Nadine: Yeah, totally. So, yeah, it's the starting point for every project that I work on. So either as a business, you have done your own research. When you come to me or if that is something you need help with, I give you my expert guidance and those strategic tools to make it super simple, to do it for you.
But basically, if you look at it from a everyday life perspective, it's, you wouldn't reverse your car blindly without actually looking behind you, where you going and looking behind you, because success rate would be rather low, or you wouldn't be able to see your dream house without, you know, having engineer's plans and architectural drawings to give you structure and the educated guidance to make it a success.
Writing your copy is very similar to that. Really. So 80% of copy is research and strategy and mapping it out and defining the direction for your copy. And then probably, yeah, 20% comes down to flair for language and creativity and making the language seen. So that's why copywriting often, um, is compared to this creative field.
When in fact it's more scientific and analytical way. And actually getting all your ducks, all your ducks in a row. So, yeah.
Donna: Fascinating. So how do you go about researching your audience, where your ideal client, where does that? What's the starting point in?
Nadine: Yeah, so that depends on where you are on your business journey.
So, if you are brand new startup in new business, you don't have any existing customers. You can still carry out that research and get the juicy information and the language and the messages that are floating around in your customer's mind and easy ways to do that is by hanging out basically where your ideal customer hangs out.
So having a look on Facebook, tracking down Facebook groups, where, your ideal client shares their pain points, their desires, the transformation, the solutions that they're looking for. And then listening in sneakily and taking notes, how they talk about their problems and what's going on in their lives.
You can also have a look at your competitors, particularly as a product-based business. This is really good. So if you are launching a new product, there will be similar products that are solving similar problems. So either jump on Amazon, wherever that product is, um, is being sold on their website and have a look at their.
And have a look at, again, the objections, the pain points, the benefits and transformation my customers are looking for potentially also false beliefs. So things that customers thought were true before they weren't engaging with the products. All those things are perfectly positioned to help you guide cold leads and turn them into.
If you are an existing business, that's a lot easier, same thing here. So if you have customer reviews or testimonials, simply have a look through those and mine them for sticky terms and patterns such you can pick up that people are noting about your offer, but a big one is actually sending out to a long customer survey and you can do that to existing customers.
So people you've worked with or people who have bought your front. And you can also do that, particularly, for course, creators and people with digital products. So potentially serving people who have engaged with your email sequence, they've opened your emails. They potentially have checked out your, your sales page, but they didn't end up buying.
So I sent them a survey to find out why they didn't purchase from you and to find out those objections and better address them in your copy. And then if you didn't want to take it one step further, you can even, jump on a quick phone call with particular survey respondents that gave you really good insights or information where you wanted to get a little bit further.
Donna: Is that the same sort of a process if you're a product-based business as well?
Nadine: Yes, a product based businesses, the same thing, you can send out surveys, or if you want to gain a quick insight on autopilot. You can always automate it as part of your post-purchase sequence as well. So you've got a brief survey that you invited customers to complete their, what always helps as well with surveys is linking some sort of incentive to completing the survey.
So running the people away among everyone who responds and who participates just to get that response right up and actually, you know, incentivize people to come through with the goods.
Donna: Yeah, exactly. Right. And that kind of like, it ties into my next question beautifully, so thank you for that.
Customer journey. So to get the results that you're dreaming of for your business, you do need to craft that strategic customer journey that first initially attracts them and then really nurtures them similar to what you were saying, and then to become the customer buying from you, but not just buying from you or so buying from you on an ongoing basis, or being a walking, talking billboard that then sells for you to family and friends. So that's in a nutshell what we're talking about with a customer journey.
So what should business owners be thinking about when it comes to creating that customer journey? So talking about strategy maybe we could unpack that. Like how do you unpack your customer journey? If you have no idea, even where to start? Like, do you have some suggestions around doing that?
Nadine: Yeah. So as part of the strategy session that I do at the start of every project, I, um, yeah, pretty much pick apart the product offering and the products that are working really well together that have synergies or that would be complimentary. So I call it a building block office, suite, or product suite, where you work out that natural, organic progression through your offering. And then once you've unpacked that you can use your audience research and the pain points and all the things that juicy insights that you got through your research to pretty much drip feed the right information at the right time. So people organically are nurtured and warned to that next offer that you are going to present them. And then ultimately selling doesn't feel sleazy and icky just because you are helping your audience solve a problem. And you're just helping them make that natural, organic decision themselves rather than pushing them.
Donna: Yeah, and I think too, like what I have worked with my clients is that when we look at the client journey or the customer journey is if you understand where people are coming into your orbit and what their behaviors are, once they're in that orbit to then move through your, a lot of people refer it as to a customer funnel as they're coming in through that funnel.
What are the movements likely to be? And how can you nurture that as they're moving through that funnel to hopefully then buy from you and become that walking, talking billboard. And if you don't know what that is, if you have no idea in your business, what that is, you just put products out there or you put services out there and cross your fingers and hope people buy.
It's not enough to run your business based on hope. You've got to have strategy behind your business to make sure it's sustainable, long-term to make sure that you're building a great reputation within your industry or within your local area. Otherwise you might have amazing moments of growth, amazing moments of success, but what you really want as a business owner is to have that beautiful, smooth, consistent flow of business.
Nadine: Yeah. And all the effort you put in early on in your business, as well as your product offering evolves really helps you automate so many things, as well as you were saying, it just organically. Builds one on top of the other, and you can automate so many email sequences as well without them having to go in and manually pitch someone to upgrade to the next offer or keep working with you.
So if you can just give them what they want before they know they, they want it, it just makes everything so much more seamless.
Donna: And in talking about nurturing customers, really the purchase is the start of the conversation really isn't it. And I was reading one of your blogs about these, which I found really inspiring too.
Instead of seeing that the purchase is the end point. It's actually the beginning of what can be a long-term relationship with this customer and using it as the stepping stone to the next purchase or the next logical steps. And even having ever referral program, do you want to talk us through some of those things that you have seen work really well for business owners in nurturing their customers for the term?
Nadine: Yeah, totally. And ultimately, as you said, retaining existing customers is so much more cost effective and time effective than, you know, going and putting yourself out there every time, trying to find new customers. So if you can encourage them, buy up loyalty programs or reward programs to, you know, spread the word for you.
And ultimately come back that works a treat and then rewarding them with milestone special offers and discounts that entices them to come back. Also thinking ahead and even thinking about replenishment, if you're a product based business, you can make it super simple for your customers to, uh, let's say you're a skincare brand, you know, estimate to a product lasts for about four months.
You can then automate again because big fan of automation and come up with a sequence that reminds people after three months down the track that it's likely your products running out. Do you want to get to hit around buying the next product? That is a great way as well, or presenting organic products.
So if you have, let's say. Kids drink bottle deacon, then down the track, present them with, if you're selling bottle protectors, for example, that is your bottom looking slightly scruffy button. Now, you know, it's been a first term in the school year. Here's the protector. It's very vivid to takes that lifestyle.
So it's just coming up with creative ways to inspire your audience, to engage with your brand again and again.
Donna: Yeah. I love that. And as a consumer and as a mum, as you know, that's a great example for people to start really thinking creatively about what they're doing with that sales process and keeping engaged with the conversation with your customers to be like here's some practical tips or some tricks, that will help you to get the most out of your purchase or to get the most out of the service that we provided to you. That's the sort of stuff that as a customer, you're like, wow, the value doesn't just stop, when I get the product in the mail or when I've had that service provided to me, it actually keeps going long term.
And so there's heaps of value for the client or the customer in that. But then as the business owner, that's going to be returned to you in referrals and in repeat purchases and stuff like that. So that's very clever.
Nadine: A lot of those things, don't take very long to set up either. So once you have it in place, you can drip feed and repurpose that content as well.
So you might use something as a freebie lead magnet, but you can also repurpose that then down the track as a gift for VIP customers or customer exclusive content as well. So there are so many ways to create content once and then use it strategically as added value for us as well.
Donna: Yeah, absolutely. And that's just like, sort of sparked an idea for me in that for our listeners who are product-based businesses, it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to reward your clients with a product that you send out in the mail to them, like a tangible actual object. It can be a digital product as in, it could be a guide to help them do X, Y, Z, that relates to what that product is about. And then that goes out to them. As you said, as like a bonus, a thank you gift, or as a way of attracting new clients in that you're spreading it through your social media channels to be like, Hey, do you want to download this from me. And then they come into your email list and then you can market to them. So there's some really ingenious cost, effective ways that you can absolutely ramp up your marketing through the tips that you're giving us. So this is fantastic.
Nadine: Yeah. I've got one current client she's really clever. She's a global e-commerce brand and she is, yeah. Thinking outside of the box with everything, she's got an ebook, a recipe ebook that features all her products. So again, it adds extra value for her customers to engage with our products and give them ideas, and then also sparks them to shape the content on social media and tag the brand. So it really generates content for her on autopilot and her customers get extra value and nutritionist develop recipes as a bonus. Again, it's all about creativity and trying to reinvent how you nurture your audience without discount codes and devaluing your product.
Donna: Yep. And without being salesy, as she said before, that itchiness, that I think a lot of the time as business owners, we don't necessarily, we don't want to be salesy.
You don't want to come across as that, but then they can maybe gap with it, people say to me in working with them, what, I don't want to be salesy, but how do I get money through the door if I don't ask for the sale, but what you've described closes that gap beautifully and doesn't feel salesy at all.
Donna: So let's recap because we've already covered so much. We've got a general understanding of copywriting, what it is, why it's important for our businesses. You shared ways with us that can really optimize that ideal customer research when we're starting out with our copy. And you've also explored the concepts of the customer journey.
We've talked about why it needs to be definitely part of your business strategy. And then we've talked about nurturing our customers. So we've covered so much gold already. What I'd like to do is talk about repurposing content. So I know myself and then working with so many women in business so much time and effort goes into creating copy.
And it's not everybody's super power. So not everyone is in that creative mind space where it just rolls off the tongue or like kind of just comes through the keyboard. So, so much time goes into it. I love to repurpose as much content as I can, as a, say, a time-saving strategy. So off the back, for example, off the back of this podcast, what I'll do is I'll create social media posts.
I'll invite you on to do an Insta live with me at the time when it's released, I'll tag you. You'll tag me. We'll share that. I'll talk about it in my weekly coffee and coaching session that I do every Monday morning, I'll create a blog post from it. Although, if I'm really honest at the moment, all of my transcripts are just backlogging for blogging because I haven't yet transformed them into a blog post, but I will.
And so that's just from one thing that I do within my business, being the podcast, I then repurpose that to extend the, um, the effort. I know that not everybody has a podcast, but that was just one example of the way that I do it. But when we look specifically at written copy, what copy usually works well when re-purposing?
Nadine: Yeah, so blog posts are really good because he can, if you write them properly and structure them properly with an intro and then separate ideas, you can totally break that down into separate social media posts as well. And do not turn it into a carousel that completes, you know, contains the complete blog information or into individual poles that then down the track, speak to individual ideas you covered it in the, in the blog post, what else? Podcast episodes. You said, if you have anything, even videos, video content, you can transcribe that. Um, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel and, you know, ride from scratch and then optimize it for, SEO to get you organic traffic through the door. You can also turn blog posts into emails, create an email serious from it across multiple weeks.
There are so many, yes, so many ways to, to create content without having to do it from scratch every time.
Donna: Absolutely. Sometimes people express concerns to me though, that they're worried about putting the same message out there in multiple places over and over again, and sounding like a broken record. So what's your thoughts on that?
What's the average time that your message needs to be seen or heard before customers know and trust you enough to buy from you?
Nadine: Yeah, so it takes about seven times to actually sink in. So don't shy away from saying the same thing over and over again. Plus the social media algorithm, you put it out on social media is likely going to be not presented to everyone you want to see.
I wanted to see as well. So yeah. Repeat yourself. People are likely not going to remember the message and stay consistent plus, consistency again, builds up your brand recognition and your brand profile and helps people recognize you for that, one thing that, um, you know, makes you, it makes you unique from everyone else.
Donna: So much gold. Oh my goodness. This has been amazing. So before we wrap up today, was there anything else you'd like to share with us when it comes to copywriting and customer research? Any of the things that we've covered already?
Nadine: Yes, it's again, don't skip that step. I saw many customers, clients of mine , they know their audience and they think they know what their audience thinks but the big aha moments and pennies that are dropped by doing a survey and actually taking the time to sort it into a spreadsheet of pain-points patterns, pain pain-points objections, all the things and seeing it black on white, is likely to transform how you market your business and how you write content in the future. So do yourself a favor and actually do that step and take the time before spending that precious time and headspace on writing for your business without actually seeing.
Donna: Yeah, don't skip that step guys.
Nadine: Exactly. Don't it sounds boring and tedious, but it is so worth it. And if you do it regularly as your business evolves, it is just going to give you that extra boost to make it worth it.
Donna: So anyone listening, I recommend that you absolutely go and check out Nadine social pages and her website, she gives a lot of free value. If copywriting isn't one of your superpowers, going check out his stuff, have a, listen, you do loads of videos and you give like tips on a really regular basis, but also you might consider wanting to have a chat with Nadine if copywriting isn't your thing. And you want some help and guidance with that. So where can people find you? What's the best way to contact you Nadine, if they're wanting to have a chat with you and explore more.
Nadine: Yeah, so you best ahead to my website, candocontent.com. If you do want to check out some other free resources available, there are many courses and master classes on websites, customer journey that we touched on as well. Otherwise, follow me on Instagram @candocontent for regular tips, behind the scenes and insights for anything copywriting.
Donna: Awesome. Well, I'll link to those in the show notes. Thanks Nadine. It's been awesome today, speaking with you on the podcast and to everyone listening, I wish you a very, very beautiful day and I can't wait to catch you on the next episode.
Nadine: Thanks so much for having me Donna it's been a blast.
Donna: If this episode of the podcast got your brain firing with ideas and you've got the best of intentions to get it done, but you don't have a solid plan to make it actually happen. Then jump on over and join me for the 90 day planning workshop that I talked about at the beginning of the episode, head to donnahann.com/90 days to grab your ticket.