Donna Hann
I'm so excited to share this podcast episode with you. My guest today, lease car law and Sarah wills. I am just days away from turning 40. And so I didn't, I wanted to create an episode of the podcast that kind of leaned into turning 40. But I didn't quite know what I wanted to do with that, right. And so for a while there, I was like, I don't even know what I want to talk about here. And then I took a punt, I use my 10 seconds of courage. And I asked this dynamic duo who have an amazing podcast and a book all about 40. I asked them to join me on the podcast as my guest and they said yes. So let me read their bio to you. After blasting onto the Australian media scene, hosting national and local radio shows, with Southern Cross Austereo best friends at Lise Carlo and Sarah Wills are a duo with a difference with a mission to flip the narrative around aging. walking the line between smart and irreverent, their extraordinary chemistry landed the pair, local and national radio shows in Australia and has them seen has seen them share the stage with Sarah Jessica Parker, Zoe Foster Blake Lee Sales and Celeste Barber. In 2020, they launched their podcast the equivalent of a little black book for the middle years, 47 seasons and more than 1.6 million downloads in 40 consistently ranks in top Show podcast charts. Their book 40 favors the brave was published in 2022. And reprinted within six months lease and Sarah create entertaining, aspirational, yet down to earth content around fashion, beauty, ageing lifestyle, and providing helpful hints and suggestions solutions for their highly engaged and trusting audience of women aged 35 plus, which is us, right? So I listen to their podcast, and it just feels like I'm on the couch with them chatting with my mates, they are so funny, and so down to earth. I just think that they're awesome. And if you don't already think they're awesome, then after listening to this, I know that you will. So we're gonna jump straight into the interview, there is no fluff. Here we go. Lise Carlo and Sara Wills
Donna Hann
Hello, I'm Donna Hann, a business coach, and an online course creator. And this is the shiz in business podcast. You can think of me as your business bestie, who's a few steps ahead of where you are right now. As a monk fueled with ambition and determination, I've created and sold three businesses. I've learned the lessons made mistakes, and I understand the daily juggle in the hustle. I also know what it's like when relationships fray and burnout taps you on the shoulder. That was my world until I reshaped and transformed the way I ran my six figure business. Today I help women to transform their businesses and go from being the overwhelmed entrepreneur to becoming the thriving entrepreneur feeling energized, empowered and fulfilled within their business lifestyle. I want to inspire your business journey and help you to stop spinning your wheels, because I want you to burn bright instead of burning out. And I'll invite other entrepreneurs to share their real life stories too. Because I want you to know that you're not alone. You can be the savvy entrepreneur that you were born to be and enjoy the freedom to do the things and be present with the people that mean the most to you. So if you're ready to rise to the next level and build a business by design, this is the shears in business podcast for moms who are made for more
Donna Hann
Okay, so the first question that I have for you is and I know that you asked this of all your guests on your podcast 40 What did you guys do for your 40s?
Sarah
Well, Lise turned 40 before me so I'll let you answered before Lise.
Lise
Well, I was in lockdown, and we didn't have much of a lockdown here in Queensland. We're based in Brisbane. But the week I turned 40 was one of the only lockdown periods we had. So it was Yep. Thankfully, I didn't have anything planned. Anyway, I didn't want a big party. I didn't really want anything major, like a trip away or anything. So we just kept it really, really Cruzi just at home because we had no other choice and just had a beautiful dinner with my husband, my two sons and we did sneak in my parents who essentially broke the law, let's be honest, but they they did travel 14 minutes through the zones that you're not allowed to do. travelled through it that particular you know, beyond the five kilometer zone. And it was great. We just had a lovely family dinner, nothing flash.
Sarah
Oh, I'm always worried Lise when you tell that story that your parents will get sent some kind of retrospective bond, because it's on the record that they were illegal. I, I did want a party for my 40th because that felt like a very big milestone for me. And it was strange to want to party because that's not my MO when it comes to birthdays. The last part of the bus proper party I had was my 21st. So I managed to sneak in picnic set up in my backyard, because it was when COVID restrictions had been lifted. And I could have 20 people in my in my home. Maybe it got up to 40 that week, a few days out. But anyway, I had about 20 people, they're just good friends, a group of women whom I'd collected over the years. And we're very pleased to have, you know, still in my life to celebrate this new decade.
Donna Hann
Yeah, awesome, amazing. I, like I obviously listen to your podcast all the time. And I have your book. And I've just started reading it only because it was given to me only a few weeks ago, because I'm turning 40 Very soon. And she's like, you've got to read this. I know you love the podcast. And so in making my way through the first part of it. I read that least you feel as though maybe you're kind of like frozen in time in that 2728 kind of age in your mind those golden years, which for me, I'm exactly the same except like my buddy didn't get the memo, which is a shame. But yet, you know, I feel younger than I am as I'm approaching 40
Lise
Yeah, I think it's, it's a strange one, I absolutely still feel 28 parts of me still feel that way. In terms of my likes and dislikes, the things I'm into, I still love the music that I love, I still feel as vibrant and energetic and excitable as I was in my late 20s. But then I think when you really take stock of who you become, in your 40s, you realize that there's been a massive evolution and that's more the quiet stuff, the unseen stuff, like your boundaries, or what you what you really stand for, or the decisions you make and why you make them. So I think outwardly Of course my body has aged to my face has aged to no doubt. But I think it's more that really silent, quiet evolution that is really remarkable when you sit down and say, Who am I now and it is a different person. Even though I've just said I still feel like 28 year old Lize, it's a really bizarre thing to reconcile.
Donna Hann
Yeah, it is. And I think it's that thing of going have all of the experiences that you've had over the years, something shifts when you're in your late 30s, early 40s, where you're like, Okay, so now I kind of get to build the next part of my life with that experience, but also with a sense of I don't know, like a white not a whiteness. It's not even a really great word.
Lise
I think your your and with Sarah and I speak about this a lot. There's a self assuredness that comes with this age. And it is one thing about getting older that women are not told enough, were told all the stick all the scary stuff, right? Oh, it's, you know, that said, it's the downhill, you're not young anymore. It's the end of youth. What we should be focusing on is this quiet self assuredness that comes and how exhilarating that is. And it does give you that next nudge into the second part of your life. It's really bloody exciting.
Sarah
I think you can be quiet about it, or you can choose to speak up about the things that you want to change because for me, that's what happened when I was 39, looking at 40. So there was actually no quietness. There were things that I wasn't happy with in my life at that point, mainly the work situation and the pressure that that was putting on me, personally, and professionally and Lise in the same boat there. But I think it's and I hark back to that one of the opening quotes in our book, which is from Angela Mullard, who's a columnist and a journalist and she said your 40s is about deciding not sliding. because so much of our 20s and 30s, you're sliding into things like, right, okay, I've met someone, we're gonna get married, I'm gonna have a baby boom, boom, boom. And this is I've gone to uni, this is my career. And when you reach that, potentially, hopefully, perhaps midway point in your life, that's when your ears pick up, I think and go, Oh, hang on. Let's just reset here. Am I cool with what's with what's happening? That's where the quiet self assuredness comes in, or what can I change in this next decade in this next phase of life and being unapologetic about it?
Donna Hann
The brand, those two girls, it's well known around Australia, you've been radio hosts and shared the stage and interviewed incredible women. Plus, you've got this incredible podcast, which like 1.6 million downloads, is that right?
Lise
I think we might be I think it might be a bit more than that. Now. It's Yeah, it's crazy. It is.
Donna Hann
It's amazing. Plus, you've got this great book. Take us back to how those two girls began. Would you mind sharing that story?
Lise
We love telling this story because it's it's something that happened to us that we would never have expected in a million years. We were in our mid 30s. When we met, and at the time, we had two babies each and we were in the trenches of early family life. So both on maternity leave, careers on paws sort of, you know, in that No Man's Land I suppose of okay, I'm home. This is what I'm doing. How fortunate Am I to have this time with my children, but also that each was still there. I still have this creativity and I don't really know what I want to do. And I been introduced to Sara's writing or a friend of mine said you should follow this girl called Sarah wills. And I think it happened virtually at the same time that Sarah's friends had said to her, you should follow this girl called Lee's Carlaw we were writing mostly just online. nothing overly fancy just writing our thoughts and musings and making making jokes of things we'd seen on telly, nothing groundbreaking Donna, and we started following one another. And we did I absolutely loved Sara's sense of humor the way she you know, use language to paint pictures. And anyway, turns out that we lived a kilometer away from one another had never ever met each other, even though our circle of mutual friends was ridiculously closely tied. So we'd been at weddings together but never met. We'd been in with the same fertility doctor and never met. And the stories and anecdotes continue. We won't bore you with that. But the similarities between us were uncanny were both born in the same year. We were both married in the same year. It's it was just insane. So we decided to meet up in the flesh. And even though a lot of people listening right now might think, you know, if you're in your mid 30s, you might think I'm good with friends. I don't I'm not really open for business. I've got my group. Yeah. My advice would be to never ever shut that door because the minute I walked through Sara's front door, she'd invited me over for cheese and wine once the babies were in bed. And it was just like fireworks. It was we we spoke until 2am in the morning. From the word go, we were just both 100% ourselves. There was no veneer. I think I was wearing revolting. Ugg boots like, you know, I was a hot mess from day dot. And then very quickly, when we sort of compared notes on what we've done professionally, and what we were dreaming of. Yeah, we we sort of decided, You know what, we can actually do something here.
Sarah
Our youngest babies were four months old, HDR and newborn two days apart. Another similarity? Lise. Yeah, Lize was on my back deck. And she said, I've had a daydream, that we're both on stage holding microphones together. And, you know, most rational people would say, please stop talking about your dreams. And I said, Yeah, that sounds good. I mean, and Lise kind of was like, Well, I've seen that there's a venue holding a bachelor finale party, and this was when the bachelor wasn't lame and every invested in the country, including us, and she called called the venue and said If you were mad fans, we write a bit about it online, would you be interested in giving us a chance to emcee your finale event which was in conjunction with channel 10? And look, as serendipity would have it? They were just coming out of a meeting. They were like, who are you? We told them, we said, we do it for free, we got the chance. And from there, I think there was 200 Women in that room. And we're just kind of spread. And we thought, what are we going to call ourselves. So that's where those two girls comes in. Because Lise name is French. And most people say Lease, Lisa, or Life or Live and can't pronounce it. Lise had said, nobody will pronounce my name. They're always going to describe us, as you know, you know, that event where those two girls were emceeing and I think the names are like Sara and Lisa, or something. So we just went right, those two girls, it's kind of, it's kind of funny, it's tongue in cheek, and yeah, that's where the, that's where the company name came from. But now, most people who follow us can pronounce Lise's name because we always say in one breath Lise rhymes with cheese. So those two girls is almost like the secondary kind of tagline now, which is, which is north?
Donna Hann
And so, like, what was that conversation? Like when you were like, well, how do we commercialize this? Because it's like, it just blows my mind that it was a friendship. And then it became there was this idea, this vision that you had.
Sarah
I think we've been we've been quite business savvy, because we could realize like both of us had had very similar skill sets. In our in our youth, you know, I've done theater at university and Lise was on set in her past career as a model. She'd done commercials, she was absorbing all the onset knowledge. So we had, we had performance skills. I mean, that's that's what it was. We were comfortable in front of a crowd we feel comfortable talking. And but we knew that if we did it our way that it would be very different to what currently existed in the market in Brisbane at that time, when I was mainly those MC roles went to the very slick very professional newsreaders, former sports people and it was a very standard delivery yet Lise and I could recognize that we have this female friendship this banter this chemistry and female friendship wasn't reflected in the same way that men's was so there's plenty of male Duo's I mean, you know, the Kings Hamish and Andy Of course, and male Duo's on radio and on screens all the time but the same grace as it was few and far between for females at that time, maybe it was Lise, like Chrissy Swan and Jane Hall were on the radio.
Lise
When you mentioned Hamish and Andy upon reflection. When we came through, they were still front and center. I mean, they remained front and center, but they were their TV shows were on primetime. They were still on air on radio. And it was a very easy reference point for people who saw us in action as MCs. And because our humor was always sort of the vehicle for our delivery, the banter, the humor. People, it was really easy for audience members to go oh my god, you guys are like, you're like the female Hamish and Andy. Yeah, which, which was the greatest compliment, and we certainly weren't trying to rip that off or replicate it because no one will ever come close. But I think it did serve a purpose in aligning us with okay, this is what they do we get it. Yeah. And I think that that was an important time. It was a moment in time, where I think people very quickly cottoned on that we were two friends who, who bounced off one another. Very quickly. We had sort of whip smart reactions to one another's thoughts.
Sarah
And we had we had boundaries to where we would be open, we would we would sledge each other. But we wouldn't sledge other people. So we were very clear in if there was any mocking or teasing. It was only between the two of us in the way that friends do. We weren't going to have bitchy comedy or No, we weren't going to be talking about motherhood because honestly, boring, boring. We were we were in those trenches. We wanted an escape from hearing about whether someone had used their uterus or not. So we were very clear in what we wanted to represent to women just like us. And that's always been our barometer is We are audience as far as if we like it, if we're interested in it. There's got to be other women out there, like us who will feel the same way. And it kind of worked.
Donna Hann
Yeah, absolutely. It worked. And so then you got a radio deal.
Lise
yeah, the evolution of that. So we, as Sara explained, we were in seeing a lot of events that that took off pretty quickly, which was great. You know, that's, you know, you get paid well, it's it during certain seasons, it's quite regular. But
Sarah
then we gotta believe I'll interrupt late member when we got paid for the first time, and it was to do a fashion designers, Christmas party store, kind of soiree Christmas party, and Lise and I were beside ourselves, we could not believe that people were paying us to talk and that was a real moment real, like we've done it, we've commercialized our friendship, we've got 300 bucks, we nailed it.
Lise
three 300 bucks, which is, you know, great, but then that very quickly became, you know, 1000 2000. And the dollar amount, isn't that important in this part of the story, because what ended up happening is we got bored of emceeing other people's stuff. And we thought, why don't we produce our own events? And again, zero experience just thought we can do this, how hard can it be? And we we sort of fell on this idea that Brisbane doesn't often get the big name celebrities come up to our to our city, it's always you know, Sydney, Melbourne, get all the stars, and all those sorts of in conversation forum events. And we thought, well, what if we put that on in Brisbane, and we, we were determined to do it right from the beginning. So we paid the people that came out the likes of Zoe Foster Blake, Mia Freedman. At the time, there was a very popular blogger called the young mummy, Sophie Keisha, a few of you might be familiar. So we had all these people that we knew would sell tickets, and we paid them, we paid them very, very well.
Sarah
But again, because we were so being asked to work for free by that point that we thought we will not do the same thing to other people who work for us. And that's something that we can say, Now, nobody's ever worked for us for free.
Lise
We produce these sell out events, Donna, you know, we were selling five 400 500 tickets in a matter of hours. And that's how we got scouted, I suppose, by the radio executives, we had no idea but we we got an email one day or a phone call, I can't quite remember
Sarah
know from the head Facebook message.
Lise
From the head of the hidden network who said, Let's talk, you know, do you want your own? How do you feel about your own radio show?
Donna Hann
In that decision making process? Like is there someone who genuinely is the one that's like, Yeah, let's do it. And somebody else who's a little bit more discerning and more strategic and kind of brings balance into that mix.
Lise
I think going back to your initial reaction of the trend being we're up for the challenge, I think that is astute of you. And I think it is correct, I think very little has filled our energy levels and our hunger to do things in this space and in this industry, and more often than not, when we feel in our guts, that it's something we want to pursue. It works out for us. So we are we've always been strategic. But I think one of our superpowers is knowing when something is is when something is right for us to sink our teeth into and we're going to do it our own way. So I would say saying yes is an important part of our growth and as the years have ticked over saying no has also been an important part of the growth when we realize that our boundaries have been overextended or weird doing things for not enough so it's a real it's a real balance I would say.
Sarah
Yeah, I Oh yeah. I always think that saying of like, what you say no to is as important as what you say yes to and as far as strategy and if someone is better at talking the other off the ledge. I think we take turns in that so we have a little game that we play with each other, like devil's advocate where if someone so gung ho about something and the other has reservations, then we'll play it off. Because we'll only ever do something if we're both all in together.
Donna Hann
Yeah. Yeah. And so for listeners who are maybe find it difficult to either say no. Or they sometimes, you know, in that space where they go, Oh, my goodness, I want to say yes, but what if this happens? Or what if I fail? Or all those? Have you got any words of advice? Or maybe strategies that you guys have used that would help business owners in that space?
Sarah
Yeah, I just think when you're weighing up whether to take a leap or not, and if it's something that is really worrying, or it's a big step, or it's a bit scary for you, I think, for me that answering that question, what's the worst that can happen? If the worst thing that can happen doesn't actually change the status quo of your day to day life, then it's a risk that you can afford to take. But if it's something where your life could go, you know, really topsy turvy, and you're not prepared for that outcome, then I would say proceed with caution.
Donna Hann
Hmm. Yeah.
Lise
I would say, yeah. I think you've got to get really clear with yourself, and back yourself from the beginning. I think there's, I can't even count, I don't think we've ever been in a situation where we've ever felt. We can't do this, or what if I fail? I don't, that's not I don't know where that comes from. Maybe it's the power of being a duo. But I don't think there's ever been anything where we've gone, we can't do that we're not good enough. And that's not because we're up ourselves. It's just because we know that we're good at what we do. And we know that we offer something different. So I would say if you're in business, and you have self doubt, I would try and work through that really quickly with somebody with with with a trusted friend or with a business mentor, or really face to yourself down and really ask yourself the question, What am I what am I actually scared of in this situation? Because more often than not, you're very capable of doing whatever it is, is in front of you.
Donna Hann
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Because I think so much of being in business can be about mindset, right? And getting out of your own way sometimes, or as you said, facing it and working through it. Because at each stage that you do that, you grow that resilience, and you grow that strength and that self belief to take on the next big step, whatever that might be in the future.
Sarah
And also, I would add to that as well, like, you can't just take a leap unless it's financially viable to you. But don't give up your day job while you're still building your side hustle. Be sensible, and be smart about that, because you don't want to be left in the lurch. So I do think, you know, I mean, I know when I was working part time at the time, when Lisa and I formed. I really wanted to give those two girls a crack. So did Lise. And so I came to the decision and was agreed with my husband that once those two girls was earning as much as my part time job was earning, and there was more income coming in. Then it was time to take the leap. And that happened within a matter of what, four months or something. Something amazing. So yeah, you've got as long as as soon as there's money in and if you can still pay your mortgage, and have a home and everything is settled, then I think that's the stuff you've got to weigh up.
Donna Hann
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Donna Hann
How did you guys cope with that in when you were doing early mornings for radio when, you know, traveling around the country, in shows and all of that kind of stuff? How do you make that work with your families? You got any tips around that forpeople who are listening?
Lise
I think it helps tremendously that we both had children who were saying Surely the same ages, there's 18 months between our eldest and as we said earlier, the little ones are two days apart. So I think if we started in business together, where perhaps I had teenagers and Sarah was still in the toddler trenches, that would be incredibly challenging when one's ready to fly, and the other just simply cannot. So I think it was really, really critical that we were both exactly where the other was. And we understood in our bones, what was required of us as as parents. I think in terms of tips, there is no way around this. There is no way and there are choices to be made along the way. And I don't doubt for a minute that you've had people in your network, Donna who have had to close down businesses, because it is an enormous undertaking. I think, what we did well, when we could was we outsourced the stuff that would have absolutely buried us. So bookkeeping was not our forte, neither of us had those skills. And it was an enormous source of stress for us. So as soon as we could afford that, we outsource the work to a bookkeeper. So that was that done. The technical side of our work, you know, websites and stuff like that, when we could we got someone to help us with that, even if it was just contract work, like not necessarily on a retainer. But when we could we did. So that was very, very helpful. But I know that not everyone is in that position. And then you know, there are some tough decisions. I mean, look, at the end of the day, we walked away from a breakfast radio job because it was killing us, and it was killing our family life. And, you know, some may look at us now and go, Well, they're not on radio anymore. So you could argue that the choice we made to leave, to save our sanity and to to protect our family's well being has cost us a radio job, you could say that we don't we choose not to look at it that way. Because we have diversified our business since we've moved into podcasting, as he talked about with 40. And we absolutely slugged it out to build that. And because we didn't have a choice, we didn't have the radio income anymore. So I think there is no fairy tale, I think the fairy tales are for a very, very select few were there their trajectory and those is flawless. I think for the rest of us mere mortals, there are choices that will come with costs. And you've got you've got to ride the wave, and you've got to reinvent.
Sarah
And for context, that time of life, too. We were doing a national early breakfast radio show, which aired from five to 6am. And because we are based in Brisbane, the breakfast show we were doing was on the Gold Coast. So we were required to be away one to two nights every week on the Gold Coast. Bearing in mind also, Lise's husband is a shift worker. So he was on you know, nights and day shifts. My husband is a fly in fly out farmer. So it was it got to a point where it was just untenable. What I will say with with people, and I think what helped to some degree, particularly with young children, was if you can afford it, making childcare transactional. So I remember when I was working so hard and I was roping in favors from people, and the added guilt that that would bring me in order to work was I mean, it's a very common experience when I was bringing my mother, my sister like anybody to look after, after the kids and and that's impacting on their lives. Whereas I remember getting to a point when Lise and I were were getting busier and this was before the radio show to have being able to hire local babysitters, and actually paying someone and not feeling that personal guilt around impacting someone's life for free. And trust me, you know, there'll be grandparents who are who are happy to do that. And I remember Lise when her Maxi her youngest was one and you didn't want to put him into daycare. Please remember it was your mother who said to you, for goodness sake, you two are working, put him into daycare. And it was like and you did that? What was it like one or two days a week just to give you some? Yeah, so it wasn't just calling in favors and scrambling. It's that awful. That's where the burnout comes from. I think when you're just scrambling and you're feeling like you're doing 157 things and maybe are 10 of them? Well, you know.
Donna Hann
Yeah. 100% agree. And I remember that transition period to for me when I first put my eldest in daycare and just had that one day to do the stuff and it was like holy, like the amount, like you said, the, I don't know, just the pressure that lifts off you from doing that thing. And when they're there, they're loving it. They're getting attention. They're getting socialization there. There's so many benefits for them in being in that space. And that independence away from you. That I think it's a win win situation.
Sarah
Because you're made to feel guilty. I mean, who did we hear the other day Lee saying that? The idea of maternal love is a is a social construct that was was a phrase that started being bandied about in like the 1950s or something in order to make women feel guilty, or I don't know, I don't know what I wish I could reference it and just not give lame examples. But again, it's perfectly obvious, but none of that pressure is put on blokes.
Donna Hann
Yeah, which is totally unfair and a whole other conversation.
Sarah
It is another podcast. Yeah.
Donna Hann
And so we've talked about radio and all of that, and then you switched into the podcast. So tell us how you built that up? Like, what was that process for you guys?
Lise
When we were struggling with the two radio shows we were doing, you know, as perfectly sane women, we decided, well, let's do something else on top of that. But I think that was this little passion that was building up inside of us. We were about to turn for the, in our personal lives, there was all this stuff that we wanted to explore and talk to each other about. And we thought, let's start this podcast on the side of the radio or on the side of the radio. So keep in mind, we still had an income at that point, which was that makes it a lot easier to start a new project when you know, your mortgage is being paid, as Sarah said earlier, so we started it independently. So it wasn't with a network. It wasn't with our network. It was just us. And then within what was it Sarah for months, the network's and oh no, now we want it. Now we're now we're interested.
Sarah
Sooner than that, sooner than that. Seven weeks after it started, we got the publishing deal. So it was seven weeks after so 40 started in October 2020. Lise was already 40 I turned 40 The following month. And we knew there was traction there because nobody else was speaking well, not that we could see we're speaking specifically to women about that decade. And the roller coaster that happened that seems to happen all the time in it. And it was seven weeks after that, that we had two publishers who was suddenly again, we hadn't sorted out saying we think this could be a book, how would you feel about it? And within 10 weeks, I think we had a publishing deal.
Donna Hann
Amazing, amazing. And that and the books just taken off.
Lise
You know, we think the books done well, the publisher has been really happy. It's gone into reprint, but to be honest, it was never, the book was always just a really natural and organic extension of everything we talked about in the podcast and with the amazing people who come on as guests. So it never felt like oh, the book is going to be a silver bullet to our success. It was just it felt right. It was an enormous amount of work at a time that we were already pretty stretched. To be honest. We were still doing early radio, we had the podcast as well. And we had 80,000 words to write so I love what we've made. I'm really proud of the book and I love that you were given it for your for the earth or ahead of your 40s That's exactly why we made it. We didn't make it to become rich you don't you don't get rich off writing books unless you are Sally Hepworth or Leon Moriarty or any of those incredible writers. We didn't like to capture a moment in time and kind of like the ultimate time capsule for us as 40 year old women writing about all have our friends who are going through what they're going through. So I'm really proud of that. Do I look back on those months of writing fondly? Not particularly. if I'm completely honest, talk about burnout but you know, when I see it sitting on my coffee table and when I see when I hear people like yourself talking about it and having that yes moment. Oh my God, these are my people or Oh, she's saying what I'm thinking If that makes it worthwhile.
Donna Hann
Yeah, yeah. 100.
Sarah
And our publisher wanted us to write another book. And we were both like, no, too soon. Too soon to say that right now, maybe in the future.
Donna Hann
So what would you say has been the greatest thing so far for you in this journey of 40?
Lise
I would say, Well, we are still learning donner, we are not this is not the end of the story. As in, we've got it, we're all worked out. And we're on Easy Street. I think my biggest lesson it changes all the time. But at the moment, the lesson that sort of sitting with me at this in this season of our careers, is that nothing is permanent. And that works. That works. That's, that can be a good thing. Nothing is permanent. So if you're if you are wading through shit, nothing is permanent. But also, if you are living the life and everything's going really well, nothing is permanent. You've got to have backup plans, you've got to either enjoy the moment you're in and really let it sink in, but be prepared for change to come in whatever way that is. Because we are still there. Even after all the perceived success, you know, it's still not. It's still not done. We're not we're not, we're not where we want to be yet. At the moment, we which is exciting. It's also bloody terrifying.
Donna Hann
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah
I think for me, it's still been the career surprises, I suppose that's come through lays and the two of us being together, and what, what, what joy that has, has brought like, I'd never the same way I say, nobody could have told me at 34 that I would, I would meet a lady off the internet. And we would end up with radio shows and interviewing the people that we'd interviewed. In the same way, no one could tell me that by the time I was 42, I would have had a book, a podcast, it's all about being in your 40s. Like I continue to be surprised by what the two of us do when we're together. And there's a real I know, our book is called 40 favors the brave. But there is a there is a bravery in that. But there's also a comfort in that. Because if I didn't have Lise, I would have given up long ago.
Lise
And vice versa. Oh, God, I would have flushed it down the toilet years ago. Screw this, I can't do this on my own. It's too hard.
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
Lise
The reason I think that's what I was trying to articulate in that nothing is permanent, except our friendship. I think if you combine our two answers, that's what, that's what you get right? In terms of business, you're going to have your ups and downs, there is no escaping that we are yet to meet women, people in business, who, who haven't been through the peaks and troughs. And that will that will never change, and nor will our friendship. So as as long as we have each other's back, which we do. As long as we still have that drive, which we do, I don't even know where the drive comes from. It's this, it's this need to create things that we love to consume. It's so selfish. And it's this amazing. It is such a gift that we have, and I don't know why it's fallen in our lab, but that we connect with other people through our friendship and through just having the conversations that two friends have. And that just drives the need to create more good things and put them out into the world.
Donna Hann
Ah, it's so good. And you know, like it really, it really does just elevate that importance of friendship amongst women. And you know, in the way that we lift each other up and support one another and just keep that conversation going where I was having a chat with a lady who is in her I want to say politely, late 60s, and she was like back in my day, like women would pull each other down. And I'm so grateful that I have never really experienced that in my adult life. Like I just have always chosen to surround myself with the type of people who are all about empowering and uplifting one another. I don't have time for Uh, anything other than that, but when I listened to your podcast I am in fits of laughter like snorting and I have my earplugs in. So sometimes the kids look at me like mom lost her marbles. And then other times, I'm like, in tears listening to stories of women who've been through like adversity and come out the other side, so much stronger for it. And so, you know, thank you for what you've created. I think there's so much value in that, that will only serve women for generations to come, even if, perhaps in, you know, 20 years time, they're not listening to the podcast, but their mothers have learned from their friends and aunties and, you know, the circle of women around them have taken from what you guys are putting out there that then is coming through to the next generation. So I think it's amazing what you guys do.
Sarah
Thank you so much. That's, that's lovely. Like, that's the best thing that people can possibly say to us is that they get so much value out of hearing other people's stories, because they're not our they're not our stories to tell it's other women agreeing to, you know, sometimes open up a vein and talk about the really hard spots, the the wonderful spots that they've that they've been in,
Lise
It feels like a really powerful, powerful time in life. And, you know, you're nearly there, you're approaching 40 really soon. And I just wish we'd known when we were in our 30s that this is, this is an incredible time of life that you stepped into in your 40s. And if we can be a vehicle for that message, and showcase different women who have been through all kinds of things, then I wish I'd heard our podcasts when I was younger. Because I would have had a really different perspective on what was to come.
Donna Hann
Yep.
Sarah
Yep. I think that advice we've received two or those words of wisdom, we received two lays I think it was Michelle Laurie who said to us, you're meant to change, you are not meant to be the same as you were, you know, at the beginning of the episode, you were joking, Donna about you know, still feeling like you're 28 But your body hasn't got the memo. Of course, it hasn't got the memo. It's not meant to be your 28 year old body. We are meant to be different mentally and physically as we grow older. That's the growth. That's the journey. You're allowed to recalibrate your dreams. I think install editor Justine Cullen told us that one, you have permission and you don't have to ask for it. So I think that's been a massive nugget that stayed with me too.
Donna Hann
Yeah. Awesome. I will thank you like, I am just so grateful for your time in saying yes to being a guest on the podcast you've literally given me the greatest start to my 40th lap around the sun you know, I am encouraging everyone that I know that's in my age group that are just approaching 40 to go and grab your book and have a listen to the podcast because it's guaranteed to give you a laugh and give you beautiful insights into the world of other women navigating through their 40s Which just makes you feel that you're part of that space and that your inner circle as you do that your inner circle episodes as well. So thanks for changing the landscape for women in their in their 40s I think you're both awesome. Thanks for being on the show.
Lise
Thanks, Donna.
Donna Hann
Thank you for listening to this episode of The shiz in business podcast. If you enjoyed it, please share it on Instagram and Facebook and I'd be so grateful if you could leave me a review on iTunes. Be sure to include your business name and Insta handle so I can give you a shout out to if you want to know more about what I do the programs that I offer, then head over to www dot Donna hann.com and follow me on Instagram at Donna underscore Hann underscore s IB. I hope this podcast inspires you to be courageous and take action in carving out your very own business by design where you can avoid burnout and shine like the universe is yours.